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Monday, February 15, 2010
Introducing Matt Gersib: Salsa Sponsored Rider for 2010 
We're pleased to introduce Matt Gersib as a Salsa sponsored rider for 2010.

Matt hails from Lincoln, Nebraska and is pretty darn passionate about bicycles. He's also got some mad skills on the bike to match up with that passion. You'll get a chance to hear from him from time to time on our blog, but he also maintains his own: The Dirtblog

Matt had already put together an impressive collection of Salsa's before this sponsorship was put together so he'll have an impressive arsenal to choose from this season. With that, here's a bit more about Matt.

Tell us a bit about yourself, Matt.

I guess if I was going to define myself in three words, I'd say that 'I like dirt.' My beautiful wife Laura and I live in Lincoln, Nebraska with our two pets (a beautiful Shar Pei/Lab mutt named Amy and a big, red longhair cat named Lucky that I found on a ride in 2004). I guess you could say I have a 'normal job' too, if you call working as the public relations manager at an advertising agency 'normal.' 2010 will be my 20th consecutive season racing a mountain bike. When I started racing, I wasn't even 20 years old! And when we moved back from Boulder at the end of 2000, I was actually thinking about 'retiring' from racing at the tender age of 28. My wife still occasionally asks me how I'm doing on my retirement.


What keeps bringing you back to the start line?


I love adventure and long, hard bike rides and I'm fortunate to have a great group of friends who are similarly inclined. The rising popularity of gravel grinders has definitely helped keep my head in the game during the past four or five years. Since we don't have a ton of singletrack that stretches on for vast distances, our gravel roads are the hot ticket. That's why I'm so fired up for the new Salsa Vaya. That bike is perfect for the type of riding a lot of riders around here do day-in and day-out.


What do you have on tap for 2010?


Similar to the past couple of seasons, I'll split my time between endurance mountain bike and gravel grinder events, mostly based in the Midwest. Some key gravel events I'll be focusing on include TransIowa v.6 in late-April, the Dirty Kanza 200-mile gravel grinder in May, and the Gravel Worlds/Good Life Gravel Adventure here in Lincoln on August 21. I'll once again be going after the Enduro crown in Nebraska's Psycowpath series, and hopefully I'll be able to ascend to the top step of the podium this season. I'd also really like to try my hand at the Chequamegon 40 this year. I haven't ever toed the line at the 40, but love the riding up there.

Do you have any thoughts for a rider that wants to get out and try racing, perhaps for the first time?

It's funny you ask, because I was just talking about this last night to a friend who wants to get out and give racing a try, and my advice is very simple – just do it! Racing bicycles is a fun, unique, and yes, at times gut wrenchingly hard experience, but the satisfaction you get from a race well-ridden is one of the things in life that is truly priceless. I have experienced the highest highs as well as the lowest lows imaginable, both due to the events and circumstances at bicycle races. It's these experiences that make me who I am today - a stronger, more persistent, more compassionate and overall better person than I would have been without bicycles or bicycle racing. That's why I'm an advocate for bicycle racing. A little pain is good for the soul.

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Posted by Kid Riemer : 2/15/2010 08:33:00 AM 8 comments | permalink

Friday, February 12, 2010
Let The Games Begin 
My suspicion is that some of you read that title and groaned. The Olympics! Here, on the Salsa Amigos blog! Can't I escape from it anywhere! Groan, moan, groan some more!!! Others read it and look forward to watching the Winter Games. Perhaps some of you even feel a twinge of excitement.

The Olympics have in many ways become another of the love it or hate it things in this world. Much like the Superbowl perhaps, except that the Olympics goes on much longer. I think perhaps it is partly due to the increased cynicism in our society today. And partly due to the fact that many people are just not willing to accept something and enjoy it.

Now for me...well I guess I love it.

In 1988, the Summer Games were held in Korea. I happen to have grown up there (my parents were Lutheran missionaries there) and I graduated from college that same summer. I wound up working the games for NBC. Actually, I worked for them for 3 months leading up to the games, and then one month after the games as well.

The crew I worked with put in all the audio and video cables for the television coverage at each venue. We had passes that allowed us to get in to the venues during the Games.

That opening ceremony in '88 was a highlight for me. I stood and watched and had to fight back the tears actually because I was so proud of Korea. So proud of that opening ceremony. It celebrated their culture, their history, and their people. It was an incredibly emotional experience for me.

So when the opening ceremony for the Vancouver Winter Olympics takes place tonight, I'll be watching. I'm hoping to see Canadians take pride in their country and display it for the world to see.

Then, during the next couple weeks, I'll watch great athletes compete on a worldwide stage. Some of those athletes are living large all year long. Others are truly just regular folks who are the best at their somewhat freaky, oddball sport. That is the beauty of it in a nutshell for me.

I'll take the good and the bad of this Winter Games and take it for what it's worth: a chance to see some of the world's best athletes put on one hell of a show. Money, sponsorship, corruption, and green-ness be damned. Let me see the best compete in the sport that they love.

Enjoy the Games. -Kid

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Posted by Kid Riemer : 2/12/2010 09:47:00 AM 3 comments | permalink

Monday, February 8, 2010
Introducing La Cruz Titanium 
Today we introduce you all to the new La Cruz titanium cyclocross bike. Another product introduction? Yep, we've been busy up here in our snowy paradise. So, grab a cup of coffee or hot chocolate and read on.



Cyclocross bikes are the original adventure seekers. Capable of killing it on the cross course, the versatile La Cruz Ti grinds gravel, tramples dirt, tackles mud and rolls over potholed pavement. The steel La Cruz has always been near and dear to our heart and with titanium, it's even better. We took our proven La Cruz geometry and tweaked it ever so slightly to optimize the material. The end result is true cross bike that can take a lifetime of pounding without pounding your body.

Details:

- $1800 MSRP for frame and seat clamp
- 42 mm tire clearance
- 130mm rear spacing
- canti brakes
- designed for cross forks with 395mm axle to crown with a 45-47mm rake

Geometry: We took our proven La Cruz geometry and added a few additional sizes to match our cross racing bike, the Chili Con Crosso. This geometry will be live on our new website in about another week or so, so until then, here are a few of the more important details.

SIZE & STANDOVER: The frame size matches the effective top tube length. (Note: This is our new sizing scheme based on top tube length. If you already own a La Cruz or Chili Con Crosso, please match your effective top tube lengths when ordering.)

51.5 cm - 724mm standover
53 - 748mm
54 - 769mm
55.5 - 788mm
57 - 807mm
58 - 826mm
59.5 - 843mm
60.6 - 860mm

SIZE & SEAT TUBE LENGTH
51.5 - 485mm seat tube
53 - 515mm
54 - 535mm
55.5 - 55.5mm
57 - 57.5mm
58 - 595mm
59.5 - 615mm
60.5 - 635mm

HEAD TUBE LENGTH
51.5 - 85mm
53 - 100mm
54 - 120mm
55.5 - 140mm
57 - 160mm
58 - 180mm
59.5 - 195mm
60.5 - 210mm

SIZE - HEAD ANGLE, SEAT ANGLE

51.5 - 71, 75
53 - 71, 74
54 - 71.5, 73
55.5 - 71.5, 73
57 - 71.5, 73
58 - 72, 73
59.5 - 72, 72
60.5 - 72, 72

CHAINSTAY LENGTH
430mm

BB DROP
68mm

ORDERING

Our first order deadline from our dealers is due back to Salsa March 1st. This will guarantee a mid year delivery to our dealers and insure you have lots of miles going into the 2010 cross season. We recommend you take a look at our dealer list and call one of them. They have the correct information and can work with you to get you your dream Salsa cross bike for the coming season.



Over the course of the week, we will post up more details on the La Cruz Ti and the development process. Stay tuned!

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Posted by Butcher : 2/08/2010 07:27:00 AM 17 comments | permalink

Wednesday, February 3, 2010
Vaya Frame Geometry 
Vaya Framesets and Complete Bikes are close to becoming available. Our new website is two weeks away so we are providing this information now to help those considering the Vaya. Hope this helps. -Kid

50 & 52cm sizes use 26" wheels (Geometry is shown using a 654mm diameter tire)

54,55,56,57,58,60cm sizes use 700c wheels (Geometry is shown using a 709mm diameter tire)

Seat Tube Length
50CM 450
52CM 470
54CM 490
55CM 520
56CM 530
57CM 540
58CM 550
60CM 570


Top Tube Effective
50CM 500
52CM 525
54CM 540
55CM 550
56CM 560
57CM 570
58CM 585
60CM 600

Head Tube Angle
50CM 70.0
52CM 70.0
54CM 71.0
55CM 71.5
56CM 71.5
57CM 71.5
58CM 72.0
60CM 72.0

Seat Tube Angle
50CM 74.5
52CM 74.0
54CM 73.5
55CM 73.0
56CM 73.0
57CM 72.5
58CM 72.5
60CM 72.0

BB Drop
50CM 50
52CM 50
54CM 75
55CM 75
56CM 75
57CM 75
58CM 75
60CM 75

Chainstay Length
50CM 440
52CM 440
54CM 450
55CM 450
56CM 450
57CM 450
58CM 450
60CM 450

Head Tube Length
50CM 120
52CM 135
54CM 150
55CM 165
56CM 175
57CM 185
58CM 200
60CM 215

Fork Length
50CM 380
52CM 380
54CM 405
55CM 405
56CM 405
57CM 405
58CM 405
60CM 405

Fork Offset
50CM 50
52CM 50
54CM 50
55CM 50
56CM 50
57CM 50
58CM 45
60CM 45

Wheelbase
50CM 1016.5
52CM 1037.8
54CM 1039.3
55CM 1038.9
56CM 1049.2
57CM 1053.5
58CM 1057.9
60CM 1066.7

Stack
50CM 511.9
52CM 526.0
54CM 592.9
55CM 609.1
56CM 618.6
57CM 628.0
58CM 646.5
60CM 660.7

Reach
50CM 358.1
52CM 374.2
54CM 364.4
55CM 363.8
56CM 370.9
57CM 372.0
58CM 381.2
60CM 385.3

Standover
50CM 694.4
52CM 711.9
54CM 749.0
55CM 775.5
56CM 784.9
57CM 794.8
58CM 806.5
60CM 824.3

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Posted by Kid Riemer : 2/03/2010 12:21:00 PM 5 comments | permalink


Vaya Complete Bike Specs 
As we've got a new website being built for launch in two weeks, we won't have the Vaya on our regular site pages until then. But frames and bikes are soon to become available so we want to get some of the details out to folks that might be interested in them. -Kid

Below you'll find the specs for the Vaya complete bike.

Frame Vaya, Road Adventure, Salsa Classico CroMoly

Fork Vaya, Salsa Classico CroMoly, 1-1/8", Disc Only

Headset FSA Orbit DL Alloy, 1-1/8", Silver

Handlebar Salsa Moto Ace Bell Lap, 26.0mm, Silver, 50/52cm=42cm, 54/55/56/57cm=44cm, 58/60cm=46cm

Stem Kalloy AS-009, 26.0mm, 50/52/54cm=80mm, 55/56cm=90mm, 57/58cm=100mm, 60cm=110mm

Handlebar Tape Salsa Gel Cork, Dark Brown

Front Brake SRAM BB5 Road, 160mm Rotor, 6-Bolt

Rear Brake SRAM BB5 Road, 160mm Rotor, 6-Bolt

Brake Levers Shimano Tiagra STI

Crankset Shimano FC-4550-S, 50cm=165mm, 52,54,55,56cm=170mm, 57,58,60cm= 175mm, Silver

Chainring Shimano 34/50T, Compact Double, Silver

Bottom Bracket Shimano Tiagra Hollowtech II BB

Chain Shimano HG-53

Front Hub Formula, 32H, 6-Bolt, Silver

Rear Hub Formula, 32H, 6-Bolt, Silver

Quick Release Formula

Cassette Shimano CS-HG61, 9-Speed, 11-32T

Spokes DT Swiss Competition, Double-Butted, 2.0/1.8mm, Silver

Nipples DT Swiss Brass, Black

Rims 50/52cm=DT Swiss X430, 26", 32H, Black. 54,55,56,57,58,60cm=DT Swiss X470, 700c, 32H, Black

Tires 50/52cm=Continental Town Ride, 26x1.75" Wire Bead, Black. 54/55/56/57/58/60cm=Continental Tour Ride, 700c x1.6" Wire Bead, Black

Front Derailleur Shimano Tiagra, Silver

Rear Derailleur Shimano LX, Long Cage, Silver

Front Shifter Shimano Tiagra Double STI

Rear Shifter Shimano Tiagra 9-Speed STI

Seatpost Kalloy Radiused Top, 27.2 x 350mm, Silver

Seatpost Clamp Salsa Lip-Lock, 30.0mm, Silver

Saddle Velo w/ Salsa Embroidery, Brown

Chainstay Protector Salsa Leather

Color Upside Brown

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Posted by Kid Riemer : 2/03/2010 11:16:00 AM 11 comments | permalink

Tuesday, February 2, 2010
Double Dog Dare? Or Triple Dog Dare? 
Today's post comes from Tim Krueger, Salsa product manager. -Kid

A double on the Vaya? What the $#&@?

It has been asked what we were thinking when we decided to use a double crankset as a spec on a bike intended for recreational riding and touring.

To put it simply, we were thinking! Double cranksets and modern drivetrains have come a long way since the triple was the standard for those pursuits.

Triple front cranks were intended to create a larger gear range when cassettes (or freewheels!) could only reasonably have a range of 12-28 without large jumps in ratios, or making for poor shifting. Over time, technology and engineering have allowed more gears to be placed in the same space, allowing smoother shifting over a greater range of gears. As this technology plods forward, we will eventually see less of a need for additional front chainrings.

For example, the triple used to be the standard for mountain bikes. Now we are seeing compact doubles take their place on high-end mountain bikes with the advent of SRAM XX and FSA 386 technology, when paired with large range cassettes such as SRAM's 11-36 XX cassette. These drivetrains still yield an equivalent range to a standard triple drivetrain, yet are lighter and simpler.

This is the idea with the Vaya. We took a close look at the overall ratios involved with a road-based triple drivetrain. Take our Casseroll Triple for example. With a 30-39-50 front combination, and a 12-25 rear, it has a low gear inch measurement of 32.4. For those unfamiliar with this measurement, it means that in this lowest gear, the bike will travel 32.4 inches forward with every revolution of the pedals.

On the Vaya, this measurement in the lowest gear is 29.0 inches. So while on the surface, the Vaya's double appears to have less of a climbing gear than a road triple, in practice, it actually has a slightly lower gear than a standard road triple drivetrain. Even the traditional road triple with a 12-27 on the back still only has a 30.4 inch low gear.

Now, one could argue that even though this is true, the Vaya is still not as low as a touring setup such as a Sugino XD600 crankset paired with an 11-34 rear cassette, which yields a 20.9 inch low gear. And to that, you would be correct. However, we didn't design the Vaya to be a bike solely for touring. We designed the Vaya to be more of an 'all around' bike, one good for a variety of purposes. The Vaya is our road adventure bike. If you truly want that low of gearing, consider basing your build on a Vaya frameset and choose the gearing that you prefer, or start with a Vaya complete bike and change out your crankset.

Keep your eyes open, because in the near future you will begin to see a trend in cycling towards double cranksets. Because the Vaya may be among the first, but definitely not the last to be sporting the 34-50 and 11-32 combo to give the recreational cyclist the greatest all-around experience.

Thanks to SheldonBrown.com for the gear calculations.

-Tim

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Posted by Kid Riemer : 2/02/2010 11:11:00 AM 17 comments | permalink

Friday, January 29, 2010
On The Start Line Of Memory Lane by Gerry Pflug 
Today's post comes from Salsa Team rider Gerry Pflug. -Kid

Since I have been racing for 30 years (yeah, I know that probably makes me a pretty old dude), I thought it would be cool to write about my first ever bicycle race. The only problem is I can’t actually remember exactly what happened in the race itself, or how I actually finished. What I can tell you is that I was an 11-year-old kid at a beginner BMX race, on a cheap Murray bike with a paper plate used to display my race number on the front of my handlebars. And that the song Crazy Train by Ozzy Osbourne was blasting over the PA system at a dirt racetrack outside of Pittsburgh, PA called North Park. I am not sure exactly what it was about my first race that was so appealing, but something about it hooked me and I have not missed a season of racing since then.

Racing seemed like a natural progression for me as a kid. I have basically been attached to my bike from the point in time where I first took off my training wheels and learned to ride it. I used to build jumps and make trails all through the woods near my house, even before I started racing BMX. In addition to my BMX bike, I actually owned a 'ten speed' bike also and would do longer road rides (up to 20 miles or so) just because I thought it was fun. Once I started BMX racing, my affection for bike riding only grew stronger and soon racing bikes kind of defined who I was.

So, I raced BMX bikes for four years, but soon found that my newly purchased road bike I used for training was getting more riding attention than my BMX bike. Since I was spending so much time on my new ten-speed (as in two front chainrings and five rear cogs) Peugeot road bike, I decided that I should try a road bike race for the fun of it. I eventually found a junior citizens race in Sewickley, PA to do, which consisted of one 18-mile loop. Me and about 20 other junior riders lined up at the starting line that day. I was wearing red Lycra shorts, a t-shirt and a leather strapped Cinelli helmet called a hairnet. At this time in cycling, Lycra was quickly replacing the old wool style of riding shorts and it was also hard to find a pro that even wore a helmet during a race.

At that race, like I had learned from BMX racing, I took off from the gun and got the hole shot. I figured that this was good BMX strategy, so why not do the same at road racing. My early and easily achieved lead in the race was definitely a shock to me. I couldn't understand why nobody else wanted to be at the front of the pack. The fighting for the lead position that I had become so accustomed to doing in four years of BMX racing was definitely not going on in this race. I didn't care, though, and stayed at the front, setting my own pace. Eventually, the pack approached a large hill on the course and one rider shot around me to take the lead. He was actually attacking the group, but I had no idea about this race tactic back then. What I did know is that I wanted to be in first place, so I went even harder to be in the front again. The other rider then got directly behind me and followed my rear wheel very closely. He said something to me like, 'We are clear from the group.' I had no idea what he was saying or what it meant. I just knew that I was winning and so I kept going hard at the front, like it was a BMX race.

A few times during the race, the other rider with me would drop off my pace, but would soon catch back up to me again because I was not too sure where I was going. The funny thing is that I actually had to stop and wait for him a few times so that I would stay on course. Once the other rider was back with me and I was sure that we were going in the right direction, I would go directly to the lead position again and ride hard, while he rode directly behind me. Little did I know at the time that he was actually drafting off of me and saving his energy for the final sprint in to town. With less than a mile to the finish, the other racer came around me with a super fast acceleration. I did not know that the finish was approaching and said to myself that there is no way he can keep up that fast pace very long before I catch him again. Well, I soon learned that his high speed did not have to last long because I saw the finish line directly ahead of us. Needless to say, I ended up in second, but I was happy because we probably finished at least 5 minutes in front of the remaining junior riders. After the race, the race winner (Keith Dickerson) and I started talking about our race together. Keith gave me a good schooling about the bad racing tactics I used that day and gave me a lot of information about road racing in general, too. We became good friends after that race and did a lot of training and racing together as junior roadies.

It would be hard for me to talk about doing my first races without mentioning my first mountain bike race. After working my way up in road racing to a Category Two racer and riding my mountain bike recreationaly for a couple years, I decided to give mountain bike racing a try in 1989 at a small ski resort outside Columbus, OH. The first thing I remember about this race was selecting my race category. At the registration tent, I was asked in which class I wanted to race and was given the choice between Beginner, Sport or Expert. I told the registration person I wasn't sure what class to do, but provided her with some information about my road and BMX racing experience. She recommended that I do the Pro/Expert race because of my past racing experience. Since I was only doing MTB racing for off-season road training and didn't have any agenda with winning the race, I agreed with her recommendation.

I lined up with about 40 other Pro/Expert racers on my newly purchased fully rigid Cannondale with a Suntour drivetrain, toe clips, and running shoes. Not really knowing what to expect from a MTB race and coming off a successful five years of road racing, I decided to use a road racing type of start. I started slowly and figured I would see how the race went before getting too aggressive on my bike. Of course, now I know that the start of a MTB race is more like BMX race start because it is usually best to get an early lead before things bottleneck in the singletrack. A this race, however, I took my time going into the singletrack, which put me pretty far back at the beginning of the race. I soon learned how much extra work I had to do to gain positions back, but I slowly made my way through a lot of riders in front of me. Also, since the course was a multi-lap style race, I became more comfortable with going faster on each lap, learning where I could make up time and recover from my efforts.

At the beginning of the last lap, I was told that I was in second place and not far behind the first place rider. Up until this point, I really did not know where I was in the race because I had entered the singletrack behind so many other riders. But, hearing now that I was in second kindled a flame in my legs and I started to push myself harder to catch the leader. I eventually saw the lead rider up the trail in front of me and I devised a tactic in my head to attack him on a climb about midway through the course, since attacking on climbs had always worked well in road racing for me. By the time we approached the climb, I had caught the leader and was ready to go. I attacked hard and got clear from him pretty quickly. Luckily, things went well for the last half lap and I maintained my lead until the finish. I couldn’t believe that I had actually won my first ever MTB race, especially since it was in the Pro/Expert class. I have no clue why this win didn't entice me to change completely over from road to MTB racing right then and there. I should have taken it as a good sign, but instead I continued to concentrate more on road racing until the mid 1990s.

I think it is cool hearing the first race experiences of other racers, so add one here, or share one with me at one of the many races I will be doing this year. I never grow tired of hearing good race stories...or 'bad' ones for that matter, too.

Happy Trails, Gerry

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Posted by Kid Riemer : 1/29/2010 11:32:00 AM 2 comments | permalink

Monday, January 25, 2010
Introducing Vaya 
Introducing Vaya, our new road adventure bike. How do you say Vaya? Say Veye-Ahhh.... What does it mean? Go! What's does road adventure mean? Well, that is where you come in.



The Vaya is go anywhere do anything steel road bike. Go for a long road ride. Go on a asphalt road tour. Ride that limestone rails to trails route you've always wanted to do. Heck, do it all and throw in a gravel road or two in between. The Vaya will get you there. Make your road own adventure.

This bike came about for many reasons. The biggest reason is that we repeatedly saw dealers and consumers taking our disc specific La Cruz cross bike and making it into an all around road warrior. We heard this feedback and improved this function by tweaking the tubing, improving the geometry, and improving the rack & fender mounting. We did a bunch of other stuff too.

One of the other reasons we brought out the Vaya is that Tim, our Product Manager wanted a dedicated tour bike in our line up. Tim's not happy if he can't carry A LOT of stuff on his rides. Some might say what about the Fargo, can't that carry A LOT of stuff. While true, the Fargo is our off road adventure bike capable of single track and off road adventure. Lot's of adventurous souls, Tim included, wanted a more road focused product so we gave it to them. If this fits your persona, the Vaya just may be your perfect bike.



The Vaya will be available as a frameset ($540 MSRP) and as a complete bike ($1550 MSRP). Frameset includes frame, fork and Lip Lock seat clamp. Complete bikes feature a mostly Tiagra 9speed STI group, a wide ratio cassette with a 34-50 crankset. All good stuff.

Sizing - We are introducing a new sizing scheme with this bike. The top tube size is the frame size. We've got 8 sizes ranging from 50 to 60. The two smallest sizes use 26" wheels making fit and stand over even better for folks that sizes. So....If you have a bike that you currently fit and like, simply take the effective TT length and compare to our sizing info. It's a good starting point to discuss with your dealer. Pretty slick and easy.

One might ask why we don't have this info on our website if we are writing about it and showing it here on the blog? Good question. We are building a new website and will be launching it mid February. We'll follow up this post later this week with a bike spec and sizing chart. Look for that in a couple of days.

Now....Here is the other good news. These bikes and frames are completed and in transit. We expect to ship them to our Salsa dealers by the end of February! Initial order is limited. Our Salsa dealers have the info and are already taking orders.

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Posted by Butcher : 1/25/2010 10:00:00 AM 51 comments | permalink

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Amigos Calendar

Dirty Kanza 200
June 5th, 2010

Salsa Two-Four in Support of MORC
August 27 - 29th, 2010
Afton Alps, MN

EuroBike
September 1 - 4th, 2010
Friedrichshafen, Germany

OutDoor Demo
September 20 - 21st, 2010
Boulder City, NV

Interbike
September 22 - 24th, 2010
Las Vegas, NV

 

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  • 05/01/2009 - 06/01/2009
  • 06/01/2009 - 07/01/2009
  • 07/01/2009 - 08/01/2009
  • 08/01/2009 - 09/01/2009
  • 09/01/2009 - 10/01/2009
  • 10/01/2009 - 11/01/2009
  • 11/01/2009 - 12/01/2009
  • 12/01/2009 - 01/01/2010
  • 01/01/2010 - 02/01/2010
  • 02/01/2010 - 03/01/2010

  • --------